I was able to sit down with another repeat guest, Mason Cosby. Whenever we get together, we don't know exactly where the conversation will go - I have a few 'seed questions' ready to ask to get things rolling but then it winds and twists just like most of our careers.
The focus of this episode was to learn how Mason was able to grow his LinkedIn followers to over 10,000 in a very short amount of time.
We also talked about the pivots he's made in his early career stage. For the longest time, Mason thought he was destined to be a pastor- until he realized he wasn't.
He's now the Director of Growth at Gravity Global (formerly Mojo Media Labs) and my co-worker.*
If you want to learn how to scale your LinkedIn followers in no time at all or you're wondering how to pivot into marketing, this is the episode for you.
* During the recording of this interview, Mason and I were coworkers at Gravity Global (formerly Mojo Media Labs); I have since decided to pivot back to consulting and working for myself; we're still friends though 😁
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Connect with this week’s guest Mason Cosby
Full (unedited) Interview Transcript:
[00:00:00] Travis: Welcome to the Winding Road Podcast. I'm Travis Scott, your host, and I'm here with Mason Cosby, the famous world-famous Mason Cosby. And welcome to the show, Mason.
[00:00:12] Mason: Very excited to be here, and you've already overplayed me as world-famous
I guess I have some followers in the UK that have taken me to quote-unquote world-famous.
[00:00:24] Travis: Hey, It, it's, it's not; the depth is just the fact that it is what it is, right? So you can say you're all famous, right?
[00:00:33] Mason: Man, You're a marketer, aren't you?
[00:00:36] Travis: I am. I am. It's not what something's worth.
It's what someone thinks it's worth, right? So, so, so yeah, man. Back in December, we ,first met in December 2021. we first met; I was on your podcast, and you were on my other podcast, Marketing Unboxed. That was part of your push to start to reach out, expand your network, and get to know people.
And I wannawant to about that, but we'll come back to that because it's been a big deal. And, now, I mean, coming full circle, we're coworkers.
[00:01:10] Mason: Yeah. What a winding road it's
[00:01:11] Travis: been. . Exactly, Exactly. And so I think that's how pivots work. You can never predict the future. That's why it's essential to network and , meetle, and be generous.
And like I had mentioned on someone's in a comment to someone's post earlier this week, if you show up, even when you don't feel like it, and you're generous, serendipity will find you. And Yep. I think Mason is the poster child, forthat. So, let's, let's talk about your winding road.
And so two years ago, a year and a half ago, you were in Mississippi, laid off from the pandemic, right?
[00:01:49] Mason: Yeah. So I mean, laid off in March of 2020. So what has that been? Two and a half, three years? Somewhere, somewhere in that timeframe. I can't do math apparently, but March of 2020 was, was when I was laid off.
It's March 18th. Exactly. which was, 20, 20 days after I had gotten engaged and just gotten a house. So there was a lot that happened on that day that was, pretty heavy.
[00:02:14] Travis: Yeah, I bet. And then you, and now two years later, you are the, the director of growth at Mojo Media Labs now, Gravity Global, that's going through an acquisition.
How did you go from there to,
[00:02:31] Mason: to now? Yeah. so I, I, I'd actually like to take it one step back further. so this is, this is gonna be a curve ball cuz I, I got my formal college education in marketing, but my original intent was actually to be a youth pastor. So all throughout college, I was actually a volunteer youth pastor, and had kind of interviewed and, and at this, at this church where I was volunteering as, as their youth pastor.
And when it finally came right down to it, they didn't have the budgets to officially hire me. So, like my first career pivot was I was really serious about a girl and was graduating and recognized, okay, I, in the next year, we'll probably ask to marry her. I need to have a stable, not even stable, but just a level of income.
So my first career pivot was actually the recognition of moving out of ministry, which I, I honestly, at the time did not intend to be the long term. Career pivot. I don't think I will go back into, into formal ministry. I don't think that's something that's in the cards for me. That's a whole other conversation in itself.
But I, I ended up moving into a sales role at a parenting magazine as an account executive for a company called Parents and Kids. So that was actually my, like first B2B role, which was 15% commission, No, no base, no anything. So, Oh wow. That was, that was rough. And I learned a lot. I learned about the value of marketing because you're selling marketing, but I had no marketing support, so it was entirely outbound cold calling.
And there was no, there was no, you know, customer success or anybody to hand it off to. So I was really full funnel. so I learned a lot in that role. but that is when we then reach that layoff. And I just to give that full context of. This entire thing has been a, a series of pivots to actually understand what do I enjoy, and what am, what am I gonna be good at and what's gonna be able to provide for my family and, for me and from a spiritual sense, how can I actually best serve my community and serve the Lord?
So, yeah, I mean, to, to dive back to that layoff, I had just had about a year of sales experience and had a degree in marketing and it was in the midst of Covid. So I just applied constantly. and I like, I hate to say it this bluntly, but I just took the first role that actually extended me an offer. so that first role was not Mojo Media Labs, it was a company called Virgin lms, where I got hired on as their marketing analyst.
So, that was really my first taste into marketing.
[00:05:14] Travis: Nice. And is that, I know you became a story brand guide, is that during that time that, that you acquired that skill?
[00:05:22] Mason: Yeah. So what ended up happening, cuz it was my first role in marketing and I had a formal degree in marketing, but my marketing education didn't really help candidly.
I mean, it was, there was no talk of digital marketing in my formal college education and in the height of covid going into a FinTech, you know, ink 5,008 times running, they, they needed a digital marketing strategy. So I just ended up scouring the internet and stumbled upon a short parent certified guide that was walking through, Hey, how do you optimize a website for conversions?
So I attended some of her webinars. We explored the idea of partnering with her and I got her pricing. And then I also started to entertain a conversation of flying in a story brand consultant to like do a workshop for our team. And at that same time, also looked at what would it cost to just get the certification itself.
and selfishly having just gone through a layoff and being unable to get a job for four months, I honestly wanted to hedge my bets and make sure that I personally was equipped should anything ever happen long term. But the business case that I provided was to get certified as a guide was $10,000. To fly in a consultant for a day and a half was $15,000.
[00:06:42] Mason: And to pay a guide to do a new website was $30,000. Wow. So when you look at it through that lens, the least expensive option was to get me certified and then I would be in house available to support long term. So that's how I became a story brand certified guide, was I actually brought it back to a specific business use case and then happened to, to selfishly be a guide now.
Nice.
[00:07:05] Travis: That's awesome. That's awesome. And you mentioned, to do what you enjoy. What, what is it now, that you find the most, most joy in?
[00:07:15] Mason: It is, it is genuinely helping the B2B marketing community. And I know that sounds so general and so vague, but especially, I mean, my role right now as director of growth is.
Is a lot. And it, it's, it's different week to week. So we can dive in what that actually means as it relates today. But I mean, I'm active on LinkedIn. I've, I've built this separate podcast and I help people land jobs cause I genuinely love the BD marketing community and wanna serve that community well.
sometimes that is through content creation. Sometimes that is through selling services. Sometimes that is through just helping them land a new job. But it's, it's really serving this community, and helping educate and grow the knowledge base of the community. Mm.
[00:07:56] Travis: Yeah. And your, your podcast, the marketing ladder, right?
So, So how did the marking ladder was the way the marking ladder started the way that it is now?
Did you have a different goal objective going in and did it evolve over time? Or is it pretty much the same thing that it has been?
[00:08:17] Mason: So there were kind of two thoughts that happened concurrently with the start of the marketing ladder. One was honestly three now that I'm really thinking through it. There were about three different ideas that kind of all concurrently happened.
So the first was there was. Another agency friend of mine that had thrown out, Hey, I've got LinkedIn live when anybody wanna do a LinkedIn live with me? Which I said, Sure. Like, I'll, I'll co-host LinkedIn live. That sounds like a fun opportunity. We didn't have a topic, we didn't have a title, but we ended up getting some guests lined up and he ended up looking at it.
I was like, Yeah, I can't commit to this anymore so you can run with it. So again, at that point we had, I think seven guests lined up and there was no topic, no title, just a bunch of marketers. So I was like, All right, well what am I passionate about? And that's where then the idea of the marketing ladder, being marketing careers focused, came into play.
because diving back into Divergent, I was their first marketing hire and I learned a lot of really hard lessons through that experience because in the 10 months that I had been at Virgin, you know, I got certified as a guide and we ended up moving forward with Pardot and Salesforce and I onboarded.
[00:09:30] Mason: And set up as a Salesforce admin, as you know, part out and Salesforce. And that was a whole thing in and of itself. and, you know, wrote literally a hundred different landing pages, but none of it ever got executed because what I learned is through that org or through that experience, that organization truly was not yet ready for marketing.
And, and when I say that they did not have the appropriate mindset, everything that I did was questioned and they brought it back to my lack of experience in marketing. To which it's not really a fair comparison, cuz you, you hired me knowing that I had not done marketing. So if you're gonna not let me do it, then I can't, I can't prove anything.
Mm-hmm. . So it didn't matter. Whatever I pointed to you to show, you know, this methodology of story brand has been proven to degenerate on average like a 10 X ROI when implemented effectively. And you got me certified to implement it for you. And I just could point to all these different things. We even ended up partnering with another agency at some point and the agency that we partnered with, like did performance marketing, managed ad spends their, their average ROI was a 10 x return on investment on a million dollar ad spend.
Meaning you give 'em million dollars, they turned back 10 and it just didn't matter. They just, they were not ready to make the upfront investments that marketing needed. So having gone through that experience, I wanted to help others grow in their career and avoid that because it has really been, since I've been at Mojo Now Gravity, that I've learned a ton.
Like my career has really taken off cuz I was put in an environment where I could actually go and execute. So I wanted to help other people find those environments where they could execute and learn valuable career lessons. And at the same time, we just had a lot going on within Mojo, but I saw that a podcast potentially could be a great tool for thought leadership, for potential business development for an account based marketing strategy itself.
So because we just had a lot going on, which I now know at this time was us being acquired, I didn't know what was going on at the time . but seeing the opportunity for me to build it myself on the side to then show the valid business use case for building a podcast, those really the three things that all happen concurrently that brought the marketing ladder together to be what it is now.
[00:11:47] Travis: Nice, nice. And, and, and so that happened while you were at Mojo. You were just kind of immersing yourself at Mojo, you know that that. It was, you know, you were kind of going into something that was new and, and kinda unfamiliar, especially with their focus of ABM account based marketing. Right. And so I, I thought, I remember you telling me at one point, like you had to just, spend it 60 hours a week just learning abm what it is and, and how to execute it and strategies involved.
So how, how were you able to come in to, to mojo then, then mojo and just take off and, and really make that pivot into something you really had no, no experience in before?
[00:12:35] Mason: Yeah. So to, to take a step back, I mean, just to, to call it what it is, I'm two and a half, three years into my marketing career at this point.
Like, let's, let's be really honest about that. and the only reason I've have any, have had any level of success at, at this stage is just the very ever present recognition. That I am extremely underqualified for the roles that I sit in, so I just take a lot of time over educating. so it's, it's honestly been the past two months that I've, that I've stopped spending a ton of time all the time just soaking up as much information as possible.
So, I mean, it's, it's really been the past two and a half or three years of just constantly diving deep and spending 80 to a hundred hours a week just learning. And again, that comes from a place of I was unemployed 20 days after I proposed, and I just never wanted to be in a situation where I was unemployable again.
So like that's where that drives come from, comes from. I don't recommend that for people like it was, it is, it is not, it is not the most sustainable thing, but it, I, I can't argue with the results that I've been able to personally experience as. Taking that level of time and dedication has been completely life altering.
So to that point, I continue that when it came to, to mojo, because I, if we're keeping in line with the winding road at this point, I've done a lot from a like marketing strategy perspective. I've gotten story brand certified. I had done some freelance work and generated some serious results for, for clients on the side.
But honest to goodness, at that point, I hadn't actually executed a strategy. I had no measurable results for my day job. So I really went as, as far above and be honest, I could in the interview process to demonstrate my strategic thinking to now my boss Nicole. and it was in that, that when I landed the job, I recognized that I landed a job because I was a, I was someone that they said, were willing to take this risk to see if he can execute and deliver.
So knowing that I was hired as someone that was a risk based on my ability to execute in the first 90 days I executed, like I literally had just also spent 10 months strategizing and not being able to do anything. So Nicole essentially said, Go do stuff, like see what happens, experiment a little bit. so I did
I just like, I experimented and I think this is something that I think we even talked about on our previous conversation of, I think at that stage of my career, I really didn't plan as much. I was more, let me think about it and execute it. So it was very much so. Fire, ready, aim. And again, at that stage, I was very self-contained.
I was a copywriter. I had been given the tools within Mojo to build everything that I needed to build essentially on my own. I just needed to outsource the design piece, which was relatively simple for what I had asked for. And it, it taught me a lot very, very quickly. so that's, I mean, that's it at its core is I, I spent the first 90 days just executing and then figuring out what worked and more importantly, what didn't, and stripping away the things that didn't and focusing more on what was working.
Mm-hmm.
[00:15:58] Travis: interesting. And, a lot of questions came out of what you were saying. A lot of thoughts happened, you mentioned, you know, on this upward trajectory of, of learning and absorbing, and then the last couple months not so much because you pivoted into another new role.
Focusing on different things. And it reminded me of a, of a podcast interview I listened to this morning,on Duct Tape, Duct Tape Marketing, John Jan's show. he was interviewing Whitney Johnson and I've engaged a little bit with Whitney on LinkedIn, when I didn't really know who she was, at the time.
And, and she focuses a lot on kind of the s-curves of growth of, of, of everything, every, you know, I think everything has kind of an s-curve to it, and your trajectory is just like, and I think you can have concurrent excus for different things. Right. And so for you at at Mojo slash Gravity Global, well, you kind of, you came down from laid off, you came, came up with StoryBrand, kind of came down to make the pivot to.
Mojo and then just started accelerating up with growth in learning and absorbing. And now you're in a new role that's kind of on the downward side of the learning absorbing because of where you are. And it's just a natural progression of things. Right? And so, so I thought that was interesting. I thought the timing of that podcast interview was great because it just, I could totally see that happening for you in your life and career at that stage when it comes to learning, absorbing that piece of it.
And it's not, And I think people, I had a problem with this. I don't know, it's a problem, but I thought it was a problem. earlier this year when I kind of felt, or late, late last year when I left, my director role went out on my own and I was, you know, I had been on a very steep upward trajectory of learning and professional growth and personal growth.
And then I left my role and it kind of was different kind of learning, but it wasn't as intense as what it was. And, and I felt bad about that. I'm like, I was in a routine and I was like just learning so much all the time, but I was focused on projects. I didn't really think about it too much then until the end of the year and the projects rolled off and I was in this weird place of now I need to go find new projects.
And I hadn't been learning in the way that I was used to. and, and now after thinking about it, that's just a natural progression. And now I feel like I'm back in that upward trajectory of, of learning in growth again and, and creativity. Like my creativity was gone, man. Like I didn't wanna do a podcast.
I didn't, I stopped writing after two years straight of writing. Every day, just stopped. I think it was kind of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like I was pushing towards self-actualization and all of a sudden, Income was cut considerably, and now I'm focused on safety and security. Right. And it was hard to focus on those other upper echelon things.
And so, so I'm glad you kind of talked about that curve happening for you, because I think some people can feel that it's a bad thing, but it's really just, it's the situation and you have to pivot and adjust to what you need to do at the time, and there will be another time for that learning growth to take off again.
[00:19:21] Mason: Yeah, and I think even in that, there's, there are still ups and downs within the time at Mojo. So those first three months actually at Mojo, I didn't, I didn't do well. I got a ton of HubSpot certifications, did a ton of learning, and wrote a bunch of account based marketing blog content. Because I thought, you know, blog content's, what you're supposed to do.
My last role, we wrote like one blog and it ranked number one on Google cuz it was in an industry that didn't use marketing all that well. Whereas you transition to do marketing of a marketing agency. Yeah, correct. They're doing marketing pretty well. So none of my content ranked super high and I wasn't able to actually measure, I, I wasn't able to generate measurable results within the first three months.
So I remember having an one of our meetings and giving a marketing update essentially saying we've, we've written a ton of content. I've posted two blogs a week that are really detailed. I mean, not like short blogs. Like some of these blogs were upwards of 3000 to 5,000 words. I mean, really detailed.
Just wasn't doing anything. and then I started to have an upward trend when we, when we did our first workshop that was highly tactical and we actually saw. You know, eight new websites come in and it was like, okay. And that's, that was, that was the transition for me of, I need to stop doing all this high level content.
I need to present a, a good content that is highly tactical and execution focused, because that's what the, the people that I engage with best are looking for and can then be the key influencers that take it to their boss and trust us. Cuz we've provided highly tactical insight on how to actually execute.
So like, that was then the upward trend that then culminated in account or, ABM athon. And now it's been a weird trend since then. .
[00:21:11] Travis: Nice. Nice. Yeah, I remember your abm a thought going on and, and, I mean, it seems like it was a, a, a massive success, right?
[00:21:20] Mason: I, i, it was definitely, I mean, it took me 123 hours split together and, you know, you work at an agency when you can actually track that level of time.
But I mean, again, from a, from an ROI lens, We, we, I don't even remember the exact amount of revenue that was specifically influenced, but I know from a sourced lens, we've sourced over half a million in revenue. Wow. And it took my time predominantly, so including my time plus the opportunity cost of our other team members, it was less than $25,000 of an investment.
So less than $25,000 to then generate half a million in just sourced revenue. Not including anything that was influenced is just an insane roi. But again, it's super labor intensive. I didn't do anything else for about four months. .
[00:22:07] Travis: Wow. That's crazy. And so, so yeah, you were taking, taking HubSpot certifications, kind of learning through experimentation, bumping into people on LinkedIn, learning from them.
Probably taking things you've learned there, examples and, and use cases, applying them. you came up with abm, Aon, and kind of at the same time, speaking of LinkedIn, you were very intentional about building your network. And so when we talked last December, you had around 4,000 contacts, I think you said, and to put it in mm-hmm.
in context. I had about 9,000 and that was from being on LinkedIn since the beginning of LinkedIn. Cause as a recruiter, you know, new tools like LinkedIn to come on board and you're all over it. So I've been on it since the day one and I, it took me, I mean, what was that 2000. Six or before, I can't remember.
So a long time. And I had 9,000. And you had 4,000 in, how, how long, how long did it take you to get 4,000? I went
[00:23:12] Mason: from 1600 to 4,000 between September, end of September, early October to December. Wow. So
[00:23:19] Travis: that's incredible. And now, since then, in eight months, where are you at now?
[00:23:26] Mason: I, I think I'm just shy of 11,300 as of today.
Wow.
[00:23:32] Travis: Wow. So I've got a hundred to go to get to 10,000. And you're inspiring me to like just push somehow, Like just get over that hump. but, but smart strategically, not just go spray and pray. and I think that's the key. Like what, what, what is your strategy when you decided, Well, first of all, like, I guess why did you decide that that was gonna be a thing?
my boss Nicole, as, as we've, as we've referenced at this point, you know, it's, it's. August, I've been with Mojo since March, so we're coming up on, what is that, six months exactly. I've written literally 40 blogs in account based marketing, hosted a couple of webinars on it, help coordinate podcast episodes on it.
[00:24:11] Mason: And Nicole says, you know, we're, we're getting pretty serious about account based marketing. I think we need to run an ABM program for ourselves. We've got some great tools. Can you get started? At that time, the tool set that we had was HubSpot and a data platform. I think we were still using Zoom info at that time.
so I was able to pull contacts and send emails and you know, I could run ads through LinkedIn, host webinars, create blog content. Still like all those basic, tactics. But really to get started, what I saw was the most effective and cheapest way to start to build. Relationships with your target accounts was just to connect with 'em on LinkedIn.
[00:24:53] Mason: So I had two screens. One was a list of names, the other was LinkedIn and I would just type in their names and send out a hundred connection requests on a weekly basis to our target accounts. And it's 1600 people on that list. that took 16 weeks. Wow. And then at that point I already started to build up some momentum cuz I needed something for them to engage with.
So I started creating content on LinkedIn that I thought would be relevant for those target accounts, so that if they were to go check out my profile, they'd see something that was helpful for them. So in the midst of that, I also then at some point launched the marketing ladder, which then helped to amplify that LinkedIn presence.
And by the time I got through connecting with everybody that was on that target account list, or at least sending the initial connection request. I started to get 10, 15, 20 likes on a post. so what I started to do was then connect with those that were engaging with the content and found people that were industry adjacent but weren't direct competitors.
So people that are in the MarTech space or, smaller agencies or at that time, much larger agencies that would have people that were engaging on, again, similar topics to the things that we could help with. And I would just daily comment on those people's posts and people would see it and then connect with me.
So at that, I mean, at that time it was probably liking 30 other people's posts every single day. Commenting probably 20 to 25 times across different posts. So you add those things together and that was really the, the formula. So again, connecting with a hundred people every single week, whether that be a target account list or people engaging with your content, and then finding people that were industry adjacent to then engage with their content.
And then suddenly I figured out this concept of like, Oh, I could reply to comments when people comment on my posts. And what that did was one actually started to build some one to one rapport with my audience. So I'm not just this person that sends a post out and then doesn't say anything, but I'm actually now approachable and accessible.
Mm-hmm. . And then two actually drives further engagement, which helps the post go further to reach more people. So that was really the core of the, how I got started in the strategy. And what, what's funny about everything that I've said is, here's why I got started. , it was not what I had intended it to be, but it turned into something way better.
Mm-hmm. . cuz at this point LinkedIn is a major revenue driver for us and many of them are from target accounts. I don't wanna lie on that front, but also like we have people that come in that were not known, that have been engaging with my content that have sometimes not even been engaging. But it just said, I've read a lot of your content and end up moving into pipeline, like literally this is insane.
Earlier today I spoke with the head of digital marketing at a literal 62 billion company and the first thing she said was, I've engaged and I've loved your content. I haven't engaged as much recently cuz I've been busy. But I just wanna let you know that I've learned so much from you. I'm really excited for our conversation today, which as somebody that is trying to engage enterprise organizations, to have that as like the first thing said.
Mm-hmm. is just such a viable use case for LinkedIn and the power that it can have. So, That again, that's how it started, kind of evolved over time. And this is where it is now. Yeah. I
[00:28:16] Travis: mean, it says a lot about how quickly, if you're focused, if you just show up every day, how quickly you can pivot into something.
I mean two and a half years. And now you have this, this person in this high level role saying they've learned so much from you in your two and a half year career. Right? Like, yeah. It's, it's, it's incredible what you can do if you are, if you're driven, if you show up and if you pay attention. You know, I think that's the key is pay paying attention to the cues to the world around you that's giving you cues that you just have to be able to see.
Right. and I think part of that also is as you get into something, as you pivot into something, You can't see from point A where you are now to point C because you have to hit B. Mm-hmm. to be able to see the edges of C and know that it even exists. Yeah. Right. And that's my entire career. I've, I've, you know, I've noticed that, that where I've ended up is so different than where I thought I would end up when I started a pivot or thought about making a pivot because I didn't know what was out there.
Right. I had no idea, until I did a B then I could cc and then it just kind of goes from there.
[00:29:40] Mason: Yeah. And I mean, to, to take that point and bring it full circle for, from my story, my wife and I have this, have had this conversation numerous times of, I think the reason I so badly wanted to be a youth pastor was because my youth pastor changed my life and was one of the most influential people in my life.
And, Until I knew of another path, I knew something else. I mean, what, what high school kid is saying, I'd love to be in B2B marketing. Like that's just, I didn't know what that was. Right. So for however long that was, I think it was probably seven or eight years where I was really focused on being a, a, a youth pastor.
And then suddenly, you know, life gets real and you need money to like pay rent and you know, actually have food and you, you take a job and it's through those early jobs, you actually start to recognize what am I good at? What opportunities are out there and where can I fit in and actually make a massive impact?
So, yeah, I, I don't, cuz I've actually had a number of people from way earlier in life, they're like, You are not a youth pastor. Like you're doing something totally different, like what happened? And it's, I mean, it's the explanation of. You know, I really tried to be a youth pastor. It didn't pan out for me.
And there's, there's no regrets on that front, but what makes sense and what I really enjoy and, you know, from, again, from a spiritual lens where the Lord continues to open up doors and opportunities is in the B2B marketing world. So I'm gonna continue to go that way. Mm-hmm. , and again, I, I recognize it as, as the Lord, and if it's however you wanna frame it for yourself, for me, again, it's like the, the Lord will continue to open up doors until I need to, to make a pivot and I'll go somewhere else.
Mm-hmm. .
[00:31:29] Travis: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I, I, my undergrad degree was an environmental science and I, I had planned on. Just spending my time outside my entire career I thought was gonna be outside, in, in wetlands and in the forest, and now I'm a marketer and it couldn't be. And I'm stuck in a basement office, with barely a window.
It's a window. Well, on the west side. So by the time the sun comes in, like, I'm wrapping up my day . So, so yeah, man. and it was just like, you know, one thing led to another. I started out not playing in the, in the mud. I ended up doing NEPA compliance at Rocky Flats in Boulder and Golden Colorado decommissioning a, Department of Defense.
Place where they built plutonium triggers for nuclear warhead and, not at all. What I thought I was gonna do. I mean, I had a, I had a, a printout of the prominent wind direction in that area so that I could just feel confident that, well, most of the time, The wind is not blowing that crap on me, from when we're digging it out of the ground.
[00:32:40] Travis: So I did not want any piece of that and saw my friends at the time, all the dot coms were blowing up, right? Like this was 2000. and I saw my friends who were in business just like having a lot of fun. I'm like, I wanna have fun. And so I went and my first role was a sales position in Los Angeles.
Wasn't fun, but, but eventually, like, you know, I had to do that sales role to then get my next role to then get the next role until I could finally dis discover what it was that, yeah, I found joy in. And actually I got into marketing finally after recruiting and sales and a lot of different things and was wondering, am I ever gonna figure out what gives me joy when I grow up in a job, in a career?
And, even got into marketing, was still questioning it. Until I found marketing ops and I'm like, finally, this is like what my scientific mind enjoys. I can solve problems, build things, experiment, just build and make things happen. And and I was like, All right, finally, found what I am made to do. Well, I'm really made to be out in the mud, but second secondarily, this is what I'm kind of made to do.
so, so, yeah, it's, it's crazy how, how we think things are gonna be only because of what we know, right? Yeah. Like you said, that's what you, that's what helped you in that moment. That's what you thought was success and what you wanted to help others until you saw these adjacent paths and, and could see the edges.
[00:34:17] Travis: Right. So, so yeah, absolutely. So, so what impact has, you know, LinkedIn had on, on your career, on your life at this point? Just in the last year to eight, eight months?
[00:34:33] Mason: Yeah. I mean, from a, from a purely job security standpoint, my, my LinkedIn has become a main source of revenue. So it's, I think if I, if I've done the math correctly, at one point I was able to verifiably show that my personal LinkedIn has sourced about $700,000 in, in revenue.
which again, in 18 months, it's great. Like, again, there's, there's no cost to that. That's just my time and. I feel like that is a well worthwhile investment of time. So from that lens, I've got great job security. But I think on top of that, my and Travis again, we, I mean, we work together. Like you, you can probably attest, I seem to have probably a different relationship with my boss as it relates to LinkedIn because I'm, I'm really passionate about my convictions and I feel really strongly about specific things that I feel will actually grow the business.
[00:35:35] Mason: And I've been able to demonstrate through what I've been able to build on LinkedIn and through my own personal podcast of like my desire to actually grow the business. So I can be a little bit, probably more direct with Nicole than I feel other team members are. That's one of the things that she and I have even talked about granted at this.
The team that I'm on, like the dedicated team is just me and Nicole. So I spent a lot of time with Nicole. and to give additional context, Nicole is the managing partner slash business owner. So again, to, to have that kind of relationship I think has honestly been granted through LinkedIn cuz there was a serious portion of time kind, I think at the height of the great resignation where I, I even told Nicole I think I, I was getting people reaching out to me to poach me from, from Mojo probably three to four times a week.
So I, I felt a lot of job security and felt really probably for lack of the word, brazen to say like, these are the things I feel we really need to do. Because I knew, okay, if this goes horribly wrong or if they just are like, Mason, you're, you're way off the reservation. I had so many other things lined up and I, honest to goodness, still know to this day, even though I don't get, I don't get people reaching out to me every single week anymore.
Cause I think the, there's been a series of layoffs and all that stuff is happening. I think if I were to, to go in the market that I would land within about a month and, and I really do believe that. and the other thing is again, from a, how has it impacted my life? There have been so many people that have reached out to, asked me to do LinkedIn consulting or career coaching or marketing strategy.
and I don't do any of it cuz it's, I, within my role running the marketing and now also running the sales of an agency, I just don't wanna have any kind of a conflict of interest, where somebody comes to me and it's like, Hey, could you, what's in a marketing strategy? And it's like, I'm fully capable of doing it myself, but again, my job is literally to bring in business for the agency.
[00:37:25] Mason: So that doesn't make sense. but if I was ever unemployed, I feel like I would have probably four or five clients that I could probably get within the first week just because I, I've built enough. Online reputation that I, of the 11,000 people that follow me, I feel like four or five would be interested in doing, you know, a thousand dollars a month.
Mm-hmm. , I manage five clients. It's $5,000 a year, or $5,000 a month between five clients, which if you can get that week one, that's not gonna, like 25% of that's going to the government still. But again, I feel like I could do that and still look for a job or continue to scale that up. so there's that piece.
and then finally, I think honestly, most importantly for the long term trajectory of my career is I get invited on podcasts. I get tagged, get tagged literally today in about eight different LinkedIn posts, which helps further the reach. I mean, I'm getting invited to speak at, at conferences and in online speaking engagements, which again, that all helps and benefits gravity.
[00:38:26] Mason: But in the exact same vein, It is helping to establish me as somebody that's a trustworthy individual. so that will, that will go with me past my time at Gravity, and that all is absolutely life changing. So that's, from my lens, that's been the benefit of, of LinkedIn, is job security to be a little bit more brazen.
If anything ever goes wrong, I probably got somebody that would hire me. And just the overall, someone put it this way of like industry recognition. Like I, I went to bdb smx and people said like, Are you Mason Cosby? Versus like, Who are you? Which again, it wasn't the entire conference, it was probably 40 people, but I walked into a room with where I'd not met anybody in person and anyone recognized me.
Again, that is in my mind, a huge opportunity and a huge win.
[00:39:14] Travis: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It reminds me of. Have a book and a workshop and, by someone that I, that I now now know, Jeff got health, wrote the book Forever Employable, and basically the framework he laid out is pretty what much, what you've kind of built and what you're on.
Right. And cool. , whether you knew it or not, like I didn't know working your way to be forever employable. And, and, and it's interesting because I, I haven't had the, the LinkedIn growth that you've had. but in 2019 I made a, a, a serious commitment to be more active on LinkedIn to post more things. I was growing my network organically through people that I was starting to meet.
and, and I could tell it was making a difference, right? And and what's interesting is I'd been in recruiting for a long. and I saw the biases that people had. I especially toward younger employees, it's, it's real. Right? age discrimination is, is absolutely real. and in LinkedIn made it very easy cuz you can just put in, when someone graduated, only show me people who've graduated after this date.
[00:40:20] Travis: I mean, it's so easy. Yeah. And I left recruiting for Good, moved into marketing and then I turned 40 and I was scared to death. I was like, I'm done. Like cuz the Gold Watch and working somewhere for 40 years is done right. And that kind of job security is gone and it has been for a long time and I knew that and, and I was so just paranoid at that point.
And now I'm 47, I think I start to lose track. I think I just turned 47 in August. and, and I'm. As worried because of LinkedIn and the, the network of not just LinkedIn. I've been in a lot of workshops. I've put myself in a lot of positions to meet people even outside of LinkedIn. And, and I feel now, and you know, when I left my role, I, I got like six clients right outta the gate and most of them were from weak connections, meaning the, the clients weren't people I really knew, but it was people I knew who made the connection to these people that then drove my, my business.
Right. And, and those weak connections are, are just critical. And I mean, that's how I met Nicole. Nicole was a reconnection, right? She was, I was introduced to her, through a friend of mine who I met in a workshop, and became friends with and who I meet with once a week in a mastermind group, and.
And now, I mean, Sure. I'm, I'm worried like fifties on the horizon. I'm like, like, that's pretty much like , like you're done with your, like, I should be on a golf cart golfing across the street. and I don't want, And, and here's the thing, like I don't really see myself ever retiring because why? Right? Like, I'm not in a factory working myself to the bone physically, as long as Covid doesn't like completely do this to me permanently with my forgetfulness, like, like a goldfish, like 30 seconds, my memory's waxed.
as long as that doesn't keep going on, I mean, I don't see why I can't just keep going doing something, right? Yeah. and so, Having built that network, those connections without wanting anything in return. That's been the key, like just building it and being generous and helping people out. That's been my focus and I feel pretty good that serendipity would come along when I needed it because of the connections I've made.
[00:42:51] Travis: Right. And, and it's just, it's such a different feeling seven years later. cuz it was my 40th birthday that was freaking out, like, literally like freaking out. Like I was in indie in my, I told my mom, Don't throw me a party. I don't wanna party, I don't wanna celebration because I'm unemployable. So no, I don't want people to celebrate that.
Right. I just wanna go down to Nashville and drink a lot and then come back and go back to Seattle and jump back into my life and worry about how am I gonna survive the next, you know, 50 years. And, and, and from that point on to now, I mean, I can't tell you how much of a shift it's been just because I've just built my network and have just Yeah.
Tried to help people like, like you have. Right. There wasn't really a lot of, you weren't looking for much in return. You were just trying to, to grow network and help people be helpful.
[00:43:41] Mason: Yeah, I mean the, again, the start with an account based marketing target account listed and send 'em any dms or like, hey, you know, purchase our services.
My goal was just to make sure that they knew we existed. Mm-hmm. . Cause you can't help somebody if you don't know that they exist. Right. So I mean, it truly, like, I keep coming back to this and people, I think gloss over it, but the simple fact that 11,000 people in the marketing world, period have any idea that I potentially exist is insane because a year ago, It was less than probably a thousand people.
That's, And I, so again, that's, that's the difference. So I hear you say seven years, but I mean, it, it truly is, if you take the time to send out that hundred connection requests every single week, and I mean, I even went through earlier today and cleaned out some, some connection requests from three months ago, and I had 400 unresponded.
So as you build the momentum, you'll get more people that connect with you, that wanna follow you, that wanna engage with you. So it's not just that I, I've sent out these connection requests a hundred every single week and, and everybody came in that, but it's, it's again, the habit of being someone that connects with others and it's genuinely taking an interest in others.
And especially if you're younger in your career like I am, this is kind of a 30 year play. Like I help people land jobs, and essentially I'm planting. Mason evangelists in my ideal customers companies. Yeah. So that if they ever need marketing services, I'm probably one of the first people that they think of.
And I help the hiring manager and I help the employee. That's two internal evangelists. Again, that may happen this year, may happen five years down the road, may happen a decade from now. I have no idea. Mm-hmm. and I don't like, I don't talk about it with them. If like, Hey, if you're a new marketing service, let me know.
But I'm pretty open that I work at an agency, but I'm over new business development and I like to help people land jobs. So again, that, that simple strategy has already helped a lot of people. In the exact same vein, if I ever needed a job, I know I've had people that would hire. Yeah,
[00:45:51] Travis: absolutely. And I, and you mentioned you think you could do it in a month.
I, I think having been in recruitment, the only reason it would take a month is just because of the process. I think it would, would really happen in less than that amount of time. But, but
[00:46:05] Mason: yeah, the thing that would I, I think would be the most interesting, and granted this would be an interesting experiment to, to run that I would waste a lot of people's time, so I'm not gonna do it.
But what I do now, again, I'm still not on paper, even remotely qualified. Like I'm three years into my career period, and I'm running the new business development of an account based marketing team in the world's most awarded agency. That's insane. And as I look at equivalent jobs, they're asking for like a decade of experience.
Yeah. So I, I know that people have floated my resume and they said, Hey, I wanted to ask you if you'd be open to applying for this job. , but I just wanna let you know that my CMO turns you down because they see how, how young you are and like, so I, I, I hear what you're saying of it may take a month for the process, but I also think in the same vein, like I have to find based on my current actual years of experience, someone that that values the actual skills that I bring over the time that I've been in the market.
Yeah.
[00:47:15] Travis: And I think that's an important part. I mean, and it can go the the other way, Right? And people think that time equates to the, the right kind of experience. Mm-hmm. time only equates to, and it's not even directly related to the job you're doing, like the, like the marketing. The only thing that time gives you is enough times that you've been knocked down to know that you can get back up.
Yep. And to know, Okay, that happened. I can learn from it. Situations. That's what time has given me. I mean, I'm still learning marketing ops and I've been working for 20 years. And if I said Here's my marketing ops experience, I mean I could stretch it a little bit cause I've kind of been doing some of it, but hardcore, very small amount of time.
And, and it's just, people look at a resume and that's, unfortunately, that's like all they have. And that's why your network in doing what you're doing, building those connections and that trust and, and teaching people and letting people know what you know, will transcend the number on a resume. And, and that's why I've said that, two years ago, maybe more that, I will never again in my career lead with a resume.
Ever because it's a black hole and you have no context from a resume, you don't really know what someone really truly knows and, and what they know beyond the job role that they put. Right. any any roles, future roles, any, Where my career goes from here is all gonna be through the connections I've made, the relationships I've built and what my work has done.
Yeah. Spoken for itself. Right. And so hopefully I never have to do lead with a resume. and, and I plan to never have to do that a again. That's kind of my long term goal.
yeah. I mean, even to that point, I, I've been, we're hiring two account managers at this moment and I had eight people send me their resumes and I only had one person that said, Hey, would you be open to having a phone call?
[00:49:21] Mason: I'd love to learn more about the company and the role, and I learned a lot more about them. And I'm now way more internally evangelizing for that individual. Because I, I sent all those resumes over to the hiring manager and they said, Who do you wanna put your name behind? Like who do you actually wanna support versus who just kind of came in through your LinkedIn?
Put my name behind three of the eight people that came in. I think the other eight will get viewed. Cuz they're clearly serious. But like did I personally vouch for them? No, they just kind of came in through me. Yeah. So again, it's, it's, don't just send me your resume, but like initiate something more, like, show something that you're, you're really interested because to your point, I look to, so these people's resumes and they may be incredible candidates, but I can't see it.
Mm.
[00:50:06] Travis: Yeah. And I, and I think that having been in recruitment for so long and hiring, what hiring is, is risk avers. , right? You were trying to put your name behind somebody that is gonna be the least risk to you and your reputation, right? And so, so that's what it all comes down to. yeah. So if, if you have a role that wants 10 years of experience and someone applies that has three, and the recruiter that's working on it sends that three year experienced person to the hiring manager, how's that recruiter gonna look?
Right? And so the recruiter is practicing risk aversion and great candidates are being screened out because of just what's on that paper and how it'll look to the per next person that it gets passed to. which is always, I've had so much beef with the way hiring is done and the recruitment. That's why I'm not in it anymore.
yeah, it's always been great when I could make that hire and see that person flourish and like those proud popup moments, right? Like, but those are few and far between. Yeah. So,
[00:51:13] Mason: and I mean, even to your point around risk aversion, Allison, who's one of our VPs, had to go to my now boss three separate times to say, You should really interview this, this kid.
and I applied for a different role and Nicole actually just rejected me for that role. And then they shifted and ha Allison was like, I really want this kid on the team. So she helped shift me into a new role, which is what I ended up getting hired for. But to your point, around risk aversion, and I, I don't, Nicole and I have had this conversation, I, you know, it's, it is what it is.
[00:51:44] Mason: But the, the recognition of, yeah, I didn't have the experience, I wasn't what you were looking for. And as a business owner, you wanna hire the person that's seen the movie before. Mm-hmm. . So it all makes sense. It doesn't make it right or wrong, but it makes sense. so I, I think to that point, even within the context of like, again, these hiring, these two account managers were looking to hire Allison shared this morning, We're getting 50 applicants a day.
I mean, how, how on earth are we possibly in the midst of all the other things that we're, we've got going on? How are we gonna screen 50 different candidates? So it, I really do feel, as much as I think hiring and recruitment, it, it's all broken. Mm. Within their current system. It, I think it really does fall on the applicant to make themselves stand out.
Yeah. In some way. Whether that be you're building an active platform on LinkedIn, you're hosting a podcast and you're standing out to where hiring managers are asking you to apply. Or once you've applied, essentially functioning yourself as an SDR and doing cold outbound to find the right hiring manager to get in front of them.
Mm-hmm. .
[00:52:50] Travis: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah, and, and one of the things that was attractive about then Mojo as I was interviewing, it was a mojo. By the time I was hired it was Gravity, . so that was interesting. but one of the things that I admired having been in recruitment for so long, was the flexibility, the, the way that Nicole was thinking, and I wasn't necessarily the person she was looking for.
I was the person she found. and realized, hey, this skill set kind of fits where we wanna go. It's not what we were looking for, but this could work even better. Right? Yeah. So, a lot of companies don't take that approach and they can't see the forest for the trees and they're so used to like just looking at, they wanna see apple's to apple's resume to job description.
Right. And that really doesn't ever exist. Like if you find somebody that exactly lines up with a job description, like, I wanna see that because that's like magic . Cause it just doesn't exist. So,
[00:53:51] Mason: and I think what's interesting about the process of hiring you is in that process, Nicole actually came to me and said, I think you know, Travis, can you tell me about him?
And I actually sent over the episode that you and I recorded on my podcast that where you walked through your career path and your, your overarching journey. And then she, Sam and I met and, and kind of talked through what that role could look like. So to your point, because you had been out there because you had actually been doing other things, you were able to easily stand out and I mean, yeah.
We, not, we, Nicole and Sam very intentionally adjust the role to match your skillset because they saw the, the overarching value that you could bring as an individual. Mm-hmm. , which was a lot more value than we were asking for, But so far everyone says it's been
[00:54:43] Travis: working out . No, that's good. Good to know. yeah, and, and it's, it's been an adjustment, but that's part of a pivot, right?
I've never worked at an, I've tried to build one and didn't know what the hell I was doing. Right. I was just making stuff up as I went, but learning a ton. Right. You knew both . And so now it's, it, it's definitely different, than any role I've had, but that's also the growing the, the growth curve, and it's like being a quarterback in the nfl.
Where things are happening really fast. Mm-hmm. . And then all of a sudden in year two, I mean, I'm not talking about my year two, but year two as a quarterback, all of a sudden it all slows down and you can see the field a lot better. And now you're able to ab absorb other things. Like right now I'm absorbing agency life and like what that means, what it is, how it works.
and then it's all gonna slow down. It's all gonna become familiar and second nature and I don't even have to think about it, and then I can start to focus on other things. Right. Not really, like I'm focusing on other things now, but those other things will be more prominent and more of a focus. Right.
[00:55:49] Travis: So, so yeah. And I think that's all about a career pivot and I'm hoping that, I was joking with my coach, who have, have been in a three month coaching engagement with that. yeah. I think the reason I'm so passionate about the winding road and. And my, what I write and, and talk about with career pivots is because so far pivoting has been the most successful thing for me than actually what I've pivoted into.
Yeah. And I'm hoping that I've finally found that thing that's gonna change that discourse. So, but I think that's just the nature of like, we don't know what we're gonna do when we grow up. Like we have no clue what's out there in the world. And I was just interviewing somebody for the podcast a week ago who made a pivot into marketing ops and rev ops.
The same almost. We have like the same timeline. And we were talking about like, we both were directors of marketing, we're both on the marketing side of things like the non-op side. And we were talking about how like we get into this ops world and it's a whole new. Whole new set of people that we didn't know existed, a whole new thing that we didn't know existed.
It's like, where was this bubbling under the surface at? Why didn't we bump into it sooner? yeah, So, so you just never know, man. You just gotta keep trying things and, and finally you'll find that thing that you just feel, Yep, this clicks, this is kind of, this is it.
[00:57:13] Mason: Right? Yeah. Can I, can I share one final pivot?
Yeah. . so we, we referenced the idea that Mojo Media Labs was then acquired by Gravity. when it was announced internally that we were going to get acquired, about a week later, our, our sales rep and we all had one sales rep and one marketer, and I was the marketer, sales rep let us know that she had actually been, you know, she had been poached by an incredible company, so no one was upset with her.
It was an, just an amazing opportunity, was like, Dang it, this is bad timing. Like . So, I, Nicole and I had a conversation and just essentially said, you know, I've got pass sales experience and this is what the business needs. So, you know, that was when I transitioned from a director of marketing and a marketing agency to a director of growth.
So I, I thought I was gonna be doing some more marketing than I ended up actually doing. Cause we had such an influx of, of new business opportunities. I've essentially only been doing sales for the past from like May until now. but I mean, that, that pivot, I honestly am recognizing was probably the best pivot for me for, for the time being because don't me wrong, I love marketing.
I was actually building a program earlier today for us to launch next week, and like there's so much joy in, in the building. But I also, to that point that I made earlier of, I really love. Educating and partnering well with the community. Being in a sales seat where I'm literally selling B2B ABM programs.
I, I'm getting to capitalize on a lot of the relationships that I've been, that I've been able to build. And I'm outbounding to them. They're actually coming to me saying, Hey, we need help. And I get to match them with the appropriate services to then get them the help that they need. Mm-hmm. . So I don't think I'll do this forever, but I mean, as a, as an interim for however long I need to be in this seat, it, it's been, it's been an incredible, incredible pivot cuz I also had a pretty bad taste of my mouth from the last time I was in sales.
And to see when you're selling a good product with good people, you're not, you don't feel sleazy. I don't feel bad about selling them a program that generates them billions of dollars. , you know, I'm not upset about that. Yeah. And nobody's upset. So it's just, I, I don't know. I think it's, it's helped me to one, have a better appreciation for the role of sales.
Two, to recognize that I'm. I'm actually a far more capable salesperson than I thought I was. and then three, I think whenever I inevitably pivot back into marketing, which may be next year or the year after, I don't know what that timeline even looks like, but I think I'll be a far better marketer having been back in a sales seat because I, I have a, a far better understanding of the new business process from beginning to end.
Cause the final cool thing about sitting in a sales seat now after having done the marketing, is I'm also understanding the payoffs of, of doing the marketing. Mm-hmm. , because I'm seeing the different kinds of clients that come in and their level of familiarity with us and like how they respond to the conversation.
If it came in through a Google search of like ABM agency, it's not a great conversation. Mm-hmm. if it came in through a, I've attended the past six webinars that you've been doing, and I read your weekly email and I engaged you on LinkedIn. Way better conversations at close, way faster. At way higher deals.
Mm-hmm. So, Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just been awesome to say.
[01:00:28] Travis: Yeah. And, and as you were saying that, I was gonna, If you didn't say it, I was gonna say it, that if and when you do move back into marketing, you're gonna be a better marketer. just having been on this side of things, and I'm a big proponent, I mean, there's always this debate between specialist and, and, kind of generalist, right?
And I am a, a big proponent based on my career of not just a generalist as far as like a generalist with marketing, but I think range across different things. And so when you're in it and you're not having fun, like. was not having fun in my recruitment roles and in my sales roles. You just wonder like, where is this going?
Why am I doing this? And then you get that experience and then you get into marketing, you get into something, now you look back and all of a sudden now you realize that you're in situations where you can pull from that. It's like, holy cow. I guess that was good to have, right? Like, I mean, just, this morning, I was on a client call with someone and, We were going through their life cycle stages and the flows of things and then their deal stages, right with HubSpot and it was mostly tied to BDRs and I've been at bdr, it wasn't called the BDR then, cuz it was a long time ago before that term existed.
but I've been in that role and I know what it's like to be in that role and I could understand where he was going and why he wanted it a certain way. And then I could offer some suggestions after being in the role of yeah, how we could make this work from a HubSpot perspective. We also have clients who are recruiting agencies and I feel like I've been able to help them understand HubSpot better and how it could work for them because I've been in that space and so it's just interesting.
[01:02:17] Travis: How valuable that can be and in the time that you're in it. And so anybody that's in sales hating their life right now, or in recruitment, hating their life right now, or any other role that you're wondering like, God, I can't wait to get outta here. There's gonna be a time when it comes back to that and you're glad you did it.
As painful as it might be now, it's gonna be worth it, especially if you plan to pivot. So, couldn't
[01:02:43] Mason: agree more, .
[01:02:46] Travis: I appreciate you hopping on man, and, always a great conversa.
Good to have a conversation outside of, outside of work and yeah, just kind of riff on things, you know. Absolutely. So always good to to to get back to those conversations. And how can, how can people find you on LinkedIn and Yeah. Podcast?
[01:03:04] Mason: So, LinkedIn is is the big one. so it's just Mason Cosby, and, podcast.
So if you search in anywhere you find podcast, you can look at the Marketing Ladder or, Mason Cosby and it should appear. And then the final one is, hey, if you need help with your marketing program, just go to, I think right now. So the best place to go would be mojo medialab.com and click schedule a calling.
You'll actually get my calendar . so that's, that's always fun to, to have conversations with people that come through podcast.
[01:03:31] Travis: Nice. Nice. And I'll put the show notes, or links in the show notes, for those. so it'll be easy for people, if they read the show notes. and yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time this afternoon, man.
It's always, always great. And, I, I, I hope that this helps, some people who, are, are feeling the same, same things that you've gone through and have come out on the other side. Absolutely.
[01:03:50] Mason: Well, I appreciate you having me on the show, Travis. Yeah, you bet.